Articolul poate fi citit și în limba engleză. / The article is also available in English.
Familia Jackson: Jonathan, Elisabeth, Caleb, Anastasia și Titus. O familie frumoasă de artiști, un model de unitate, de dragoste, de asumare și trăire a credinței ortodoxe în Hristos. Întreaga familie a primit botezul în Biserica Ortodoxă în Sâmbăta Mare a anului 2012. Jonathan este câștigătorul a cinci premii Emmy, este interpretul formației Enation, însă pentru el, actoria și muzica sunt mijloace de a promova frumosul. Îi mulțumim lui și soției sale pentru amabilitatea de a ne oferi un interviu, din care vom reda mai jos câteva fragmente.
Vă rog să ne descrieți anii copilăriei alături de familia dumneavoastră. Ce anume v-a influențat formarea religioasă în tinerețe?
Jonathan: Copilăria mea s-a schimbat radical la vârsta de 11 ani, când m-am mutat la Hollywood. Din primii zece ani ai copilăriei am amintiri foarte frumoase. Nu știu cum este în România, dar în America astăzi copiii nu mai au ocazia să petreacă afară singuri, pentru că nu este un mediu foarte sigur. În vremea copilăriei noastre, ieșeam câte cinci-șase ore afară, ne plimbam, ne jucam în pădure, inventam povești și multe alte activități. Exista și un sentiment al apartenenței la familie, sentimentul că aparțin unei generații, părinților, bunicilor, străbunicilor mei, și că am o legătură cu trecutul. Părinții ne-au învățat, pe mine, pe fratele și sora mea, despre dragostea lui Dumnezeu, pe care au reușit să-L aducă în viața noastră. Pe la 12 ani, am avut o întâlnire cu Hristos care a schimbat totul, și asta s-a întâmplat la Hollywood. Într-o seară, ascultam niște casete cu predici, iar una dintre ele aparținea unui pastor evanghelic din Australia, despre sfințenia lui Dumnezeu și mândria din inima omului, despre cât de greu este să Îl impresionăm pe Dumnezeu sau să trăim la un anumit standard doar prin propriile noastre puteri. Am avut această dublă revelație despre cât de departe eram de Dumnezeu și, totodată, cât de păcătos eram, lucru pe care nu-l înțelesesem niciodată pe deplin. În același timp, am trăit și revelația de a fi totuși cunoscut și iubit de Dumnezeu.
Am început să-mi conștientizez gândurile, să constat că îi judecam pe oameni, să văd lipsa de iertare și amărăciunea pe care o aveam față de ei. Cu toate acestea, a existat și acel sentiment de plinătate a harului. Cu cât citeam mai mult din Sfintele Scripturi, îmi spuneam că este imposibil să împlinești ce scrie acolo. Iar în acele momente, Duhul Sfânt îmi șoptea în inimă: „Exact asta îmi doresc să simți. Vreau să simți imposibilul ca să poți primi harul Meu”. Acesta a fost începutul schimbării tuturor lucrurilor. Noi nu aveam o biserică de care să aparținem cu adevărat, la început ascultam doar casete și predici. Și apoi am descoperit scrierile lui C.S. Lewis și ale lui G.K. Chesterton și citeam mult din Sfintele Scripturi. Lucram la Hollywood și citeam aceste cărți în cabină și în rulota mea. Era modul în care Dumnezeu mă ținea în starea de trezvie și sănătate sufletească.
Elisabeth: Când aveam opt ani – vârsta inocenței, la care Îl primești pe Hristos mai ușor, am urmărit Romeo și Julieta și Iisus din Nazaret, regizate de Franco Zeffirelli, și am rămas impresionată de expresia dragostei adevărate. Momentul Bunei Vestiri a fost atât de puternic pentru mine, încât am simțit că Dumnezeu îmi spune: „Așa ești tu, ca fiică a lui Dumnezeu, în genunchi, ascultându-l pe Cel Atotputernic”. Privind în urmă, realizez că Dumnezeu a vrut să-mi spună cine sunt cu adevărat în Hristos, să-mi descopere adevărata identitate.
Era modul Lui de a vorbi cu mine. Mi-a schimbat viața și mi-a arătat ce îmi doresc cu adevărat. Credeam că trebuie să fiu actriță, însă aceasta a fost doar călătoria care m-a condus la întâlnirea mea cu Hristos. Prin anii ’90, când eram la Hollywood, eram flămândă după ceva de ordin spiritual. În Los Angeles, la fiecare colț existau cabinete de medium și locuri unde puteai să-ți ghicești viitorul, iar yoga era în plină ascensiune. Mulți oameni se îndepărtează de credință în lipsa unei vieți duhovnicești. După aproape șase ani în care am încercat toate aceste idei și spiritualități New Age, m-am prăbușit pentru că nu au reușit să-mi împlinească sufletul. În cele din urmă, am căzut în genunchi și am strigat la Dumnezeu. A fost ca și cum Dumnezeu m-a trezit un pic. Mai târziu, creștin fiind, înțelegi că ai de fapt de-a face cu spirite necurate, demonice, care sunt înșelătoare și care te fac să te simți ca și cum totul e în regulă.
De ce ați ales actoria? Ce v-a determinat să continuați în acest domeniu?
Jonathan: Am ales actoria, dar simt în sufletul meu că ea nu ocupă un loc central. Cred că artele, în sens mai larg, sunt cele cu care rezonez mai mult, fie că este vorba de muzică, literatură, actorie sau altele. Cred că există o posibilitate de a ajunge la inimile și sufletele oamenilor prin parabole și povești, care ne pot uni. Dar sunt și multe elemente dificile, cu încărcătură spirituală, pe care aceste lucruri le implică.
Elisabeth a menționat modul în care două filme i-au mișcat inima. Și eu am experiențe similare. Un film ca Inimă neînfricată, al lui Mel Gibson, care mi-a readus în atenție valoarea sacrificiului de sine, curajul și, deși nu știam asta la momentul respectiv, filmul se apropie foarte mult de ecranizarea portretului martirilor. Iar Ultimul mohican are câteva momente asemănătoare cu cele din viața Mântuitorului Hristos, de sacrificiu de sine al eroului principal. Aceste lucruri mi-au oferit perspectiva asupra a ceea ce înseamnă să protejezi și să iubești. Și cred că filmul, ca orice tip de artă, are potențialul unui catharsis. Cred că operele de artă, în general, pot contribui la vindecare. Singurul lucru care îi poate ajuta pe oamenii care au trecut printr-o traumă este frumusețea. Din păcate, majoritatea filmelor și emisiunilor TV se încadrează în alte tipare, cu scene de violență și sex sau orice alt fel de vulgaritate. Ele au un anumit grad de propagandă și de spălare a creierului.
Ca familie, suntem și mai recunoscători pentru biserică, pentru că există icoane sfinte care au rolul de a combate fluxul constant de imagini profane. Sfintele icoane inspiră o stare de liniște și calm. Există o liniște și o tăcere în biserică ce nu se schimbă odată cu trecerea timpului. Indiferent de haosul din jurul nostru, ne putem odihni sufletește prin simpla prezență în fața icoanelor și a sfinților. Pentru că atunci când intrăm în biserică, îi privim pe sfinți și primim Sfânta Împărtășanie sau spovedanie, mintea poate fi cu adevărat refăcută și vindecată.
Elisabeth: Oamenii nu înțeleg cât de traumatizante au devenit filmele și televiziunea. Ele pot provoca traume copiilor și adolescenților prin violență și imagini întunecate, dar mai ales prin imoralitatea sexuală. Sunt ca o armă încărcată care stă în permanență îndreptată spre lume. Oamenii se obișnuiesc atât de mult cu ea încât nici măcar nu mai cred că este distructivă.
Ați scris o carte, „Misterul Artei. Devenirea unui artist după chipul lui Dumnezeu”. Există un mister al artei?
Jonathan: Un mister nu poate fi surprins cu adevărat. Îmi place acest citat din Sfântul Porfirie: „Cine vrea să devină creștin trebuie să devină mai întâi poet”. Cred că arta este un meta-limbaj. Arta este o limbă pe care o vorbim și pe care conversația obișnuită nu ne-o poate oferi, fie că este vorba de muzică, de o icoană sfântă, de literatură sau de oricare alt tip de artă.
Există o experiență pe care o putem trăi în artă, iar aceasta înseamnă poezie, revelație, vindecare și sens. Acestea reflectă întrucâtva ceea ce ne poate oferi o adevărată operă de artă. Este căutarea sensului vieții. Cu toate acestea, arta rămâne o taină, deoarece conține în sine elemente aflate dincolo de capacitatea noastră de a le înțelege pe deplin. Arta ar trebui să devină, poate dintr-o perspectivă spirituală, un sacrificiu de sine și de mijlocire pentru viața lumii, iar artistul, un om care se roagă.
Care a fost momentul în care v-ați simțit atras de Ortodoxie? Și care credeți că este specificul Ortodoxiei?
Jonathan: M-am simțit atras de Ortodoxie înainte de a ști că există Biserica Ortodoxă. Am citit scrisorile Sfinților Ignatie al Antiohiei și Clement al Romei și ale altor Părinți ai Bisericii, dar tot nu știam despre Biserica Ortodoxă. În timp ce strigam către Dumnezeu, mă simțeam destul de deznădăjduit și întrebam: „Unde este Biserica Ta?”. Iar răspunsul a fost: „Privește Marea Schismă”. De îndată ce am aflat ce s-a întâmplat la Marea Schismă, a fost ca și cum tot ce s-a petrecut în cei patru ani de căutare să se clarifice. Am descoperit cartea The Orthodox Church (Biserica Ortodoxă), scrisă de părintele John Anthony McGuckin, și nu m-am mai putut opri din citit. Apoi am citit Biserica Ortodoxă de Kallistos Ware și Muntele tăcerii. I-am spus soției mele, Elisabeth: „Ascultă, o să sune foarte ciudat, dar cred că Biserica Ortodoxă este Biserica adevărată”.
Apoi am descoperit frumusețea din cadrul Bisericii ortodoxe. Deși exista o mulțime de lupte, era atât de multă frumusețe – misticismul trinitar, viața de rugăciune, de pocăință și de smerenie. Nu este doar teologie intelectuală, sistematică. Este mistică. Este relație, este o întâlnire cu Duhul Sfânt. Când am citit la Sfântul Atanasie Despre întruparea Cuvântului, m-am gândit: „Nu cred că am fost vreodată cu adevărat creștin”. Adică, am fost, dar m-a făcut să simt că nu am fost cu adevărat creștin, dacă asta înseamnă să fii creștin. Este ca acea comoară ascunsă într-o țarină despre care vorbește Hristos. Asta este cu adevărat Biserica Ortodoxă, Biserica Una, Sfântă, Catolică și Apostolică. Îmi amintesc că am fost la vecernia din Duminica Ortodoxiei, când preoții declară „aceasta este credința Apostolilor, aceasta este credința care susține universul”. A spune Crezul în Biserica Ortodoxă este o minune. Să te apropii de Sfântul Potir și să știi că din acesta se împărtășesc nu numai toți ceilalți creștini ortodocși din întreaga lume, ci și din toate timpurile. Ai parte de multă frumusețe și slavă. Este dincolo de cuvinte.
Este atât de mult mister în Biserica Ortodoxă! Iar una dintre cele mai profunde sau evidente dovezi ale Bisericii sunt sfinții. Dacă Biserica Ortodoxă ar avea un singur sfânt, ar fi de ajuns. Dar Dumnezeu ne-a dat atât de mulți! Avem nevoie de ei mai ales în aceste vremuri. Cred că în Biserica Ortodoxă există o unicitate și o frumusețe deosebită în jurul acestor două lucruri care se manifestă în viețile sfinților: iubirea față de vrăjmași și smerenia asemenea lui Hristos. Și poate că cel mai bun mod de a înțelege ce este Ortodoxia este întâlnirea cu acești sfinți.
Cât de importantă este prezența unei mănăstiri ortodoxe în mijlocul lumii occidentale?
Jonathan: Cred că prezența mănăstirilor ortodoxe, în special în Occident, este vitală în acest moment. Când am vizitat o mănăstire pentru prima dată, am avut o experiență foarte profundă, pentru că există un proces de vindecare ce are loc într-un astfel de lăcaș.
La prima vizită în Sfântul Munte, un bătrân mi-a zis: când o persoană căsătorită vine într-o sfântă mănăstire, va pleca cu căsnicia întărită. Ce taină minunată! Călugării trăiesc viața monahală și dau vitalitate căsătoriilor! Pentru oameni, este o binecuvântare să poată intra într-o mănăstire și să simtă pacea, calmul, rugăciunea și liniștea de acolo. Este ca și cum sfintele mănăstiri țin lumea departe de haosul total.
Ce schimbare putem aduce pentru a face această lume mai bună?
Jonathan: Ar trebui să punem accentul pe ceea ce Sfântul Serafim de Sarov spune: „Dobândește Duhul Sfânt și mii de oameni din jurul tău se vor mântui”. Aici este ceva foarte profund și adevărat. Iar Sfântul Siluan ne spune că există o modalitate de a ști dacă Îl avem pe Duhul Sfânt – dacă ne iubim dușmanii. Iubirea de vrăjmași și smerenia asemenea lui Hristos sunt ceea ce lumea trebuie să vadă. Sunt lucruri reale, pentru că nu ne putem preface. Trebuie să te lepezi de sine pentru a experimenta harul Duhului Sfânt.
Cum putem face față astăzi depresiei și tristeții?
Elisabeth: Am avut de-a face cu crize de depresie și a trebuit să ajung la rădăcina ei, pentru că a apărut în viața mea în momentele cele mai fericite. Creșteam în credința ortodoxă, aveam o familie frumoasă și aveam slujbe bune. Vorbeam pe atunci cu un călugăr din Muntele Athos și i-am spus: „Am nevoie de ajutor. Nu știu de ce am crize de depresie”. Iar el mi-a spus: „Nu-ți face griji! Hristos te va vindeca, dar este un proces diferit pentru fiecare om în parte”. Am descoperit că atunci când depresia se abătea asupra mea, nu aveam nevoie de medicamente, ci de terapie harică, aveam nevoie să merg la un preot și să las să iasă unele lucruri la iveală prin spovedanie. Iar lacrimile mele spălau orice anxietate. Și apoi mă simțeam din nou bine, fericită și ușoară.
Sfânta Împărtășanie m-a ajutat, pentru că după ce primim Sfintele Taine totul pare mai luminos, lumea este diferită. Cred că noi am acumulat prea multă cunoaștere a răului. Oamenii nu au avut cu adevărat șansa de a se vindeca și avem o enormă nevoie de vindecare.
Jonathan: În general, lupta noastră cu depresia are în centru lipsa de sens. Am multă empatie și compasiune pentru oamenii care se simt singuri, pentru că se luptă. Hristos dă sens vieții. Există și o rugăciune frumoasă: „Doamne Iisuse Hristoase, Cel ce ești plinirea tuturor bunătăților”. Fără Hristos, nici măcar lucrurile bune nu-și pot avea împlinirea. Cred că în societatea și cultura noastră există o mare izolare. C.S. Lewis spunea: „Citim ca să aflăm că nu suntem singuri”. Nu știu cum ar fi fost viața mea dacă nu aș fi reușit să intru în legătură cu oameni din trecut, prin lectură.
Cum ați experimentat Taina Căsătoriei în Biserică?
Jonathan: Am fost căsătoriți mulți ani înainte de a deveni ortodocși. Iar după ce am devenit ortodocși, un preot care ne este foarte apropiat a spus: „Puteți să vă binecuvântați căsătoria în Biserica Ortodoxă”. Acasă, am o fotografie cu botezul meu ca protestant. În momentul în care am primit botezul ortodox, preotul a spus: „Îți amintești de poza aceea de pe perete? Aceasta este împlinirea ei”. Și acest lucru l-am simțit și cu binecuvântarea căsătoriei în Biserică. Nu este ca și cum nu am fi fost căsătoriți înainte, ci că acum este împlinită.
Cum vă trăiți credința în familie? Ce face ca dragostea dintre voi doi și copii să fie atât de solidă?
Elisabeth: Cu cât trăiesc mai mult ca un creștin, cu atât mai mult copiii sunt martori ai acestui lucru. Atunci când mă vor vedea plângând în biserică, sau mergând la spovedanie, sau pierzându-mi cumpătul și încercând să mă stăpânesc – vor înțelege că mama își lucrează mântuirea. Dragostea și respectul pe care le avem, pacea de după o ceartă, toate acestea fac parte din trăirea credinței în familie.
Fundamentul iubirii noastre este binecuvântat de Hristos. Atunci când cei doi soți se iubesc, copiii se simt în siguranță, fericiți și mulțumiți. Suntem foarte apropiați în familie, pentru că există multă comunicare. Iar pentru adolescenți este o perioadă dificilă, întrucât trebuie să Îl găsească pe Hristos pentru ei înșiși. De aceea, uneori, discutăm până târziu în noapte despre lucruri pe care ei nu le pot înțelege. Dar există atât de multă dragoste și încredere între noi! Aș spune că dragostea pentru Hristos, dragostea dintre soț și soție, comunicarea și viața în Biserică ne sunt principiile.
Jonathan: Nu suntem o familie perfectă, dar, prin harul lui Dumnezeu, vrem ca locuința să fie o extensie a Bisericii, un loc de vindecare, un loc de iubire pentru Dumnezeu. La Sfânta Liturghie sau în rugăciunile noastre personale, Dumnezeu lucrează în fiecare dintre noi, individual și ca familie, dincolo de ceea ce putem înțelege cu mintea. Dacă o familie respectă viața liturgică doar în exterior, dar nu are o viață interioară, de comunicare, dragoste și răbdare unii cu alții, atunci viața în Biserică poate deveni superficială și se poate produce o deconectare între noi.
Ce valori transmiteți copiilor dumneavoastră?
Jonathan: Un lucru important este să nu ne plângem și să nu cedăm în fața plictiselii. Pe lângă acestea, să vorbim cu respect unii cu alții. Ceea ce sperăm să transmitem copiilor noștri este o dragoste autentică, adevărată pentru Hristos, pentru Sfânta Sa Biserică și pentru sfinți, să fie orientați spre veșnicie și nu spre cele deșarte. Dar toate, cu echilibru. Vrem ca ei să fie capabili să trăiască în lume, dar să nu fie ai lumii. Un alt lucru pe care îl spunem copiii noștri este că nu orice gând este gândul tău. Trebuie să-l aduci în ascultare de Hristos. Încercăm să vorbim cu ei despre lucrurile chibzuite temeinic: „Gândește-te la consecințe. Gândește cinci pași înainte – este asta ceea ce vrei?”. Prin harul lui Dumnezeu, încercăm să fim clari și fermi în privința învățăturilor lui Hristos și ale Bisericii. Una dintre ele este să iubim lumea. Să fim clari și cu privire la ceea ce este adevărul. Să iubim, să nu condamnăm pe nimeni și să spunem că oricine se poate lupta cu orice. Aceștia ar putea ajunge la porțile raiului cu mult înaintea mea și aș vrea să pună o vorbă bună pentru mine acolo: „Nu m-a condamnat, nu m-a judecat. Așa că, Doamne, fii milostiv față de păcatele lui”. Hristos ne învață: „Cel care este fără de păcat să arunce primul piatra”. Îi învățăm să nu condamne niciodată oamenii, să rămână credincioși și să condamne ceea ce nu face parte din învățătura lui Hristos.
Aveți un mesaj pentru adolescenții din ziua de azi?
Jonathan: Un singur lucru aș spune: să îi tratăm cu mai mult respect și să credem că sunt capabili de mai mult decât credem noi. Cu cât vor avea această viziune a curajului, cu atât mai mult ar putea fi impulsionați de acest lucru.
Elisabeth: Când văd adolescenți cu probleme, simt multă dragoste față de ei și îmi vine să îi îmbrățișez. Vreau ca ei să se deschidă față de mine și nu să se teamă. Pentru că eu m-am îndepărtat de Dumnezeu odată, simt că vreau să-i ajut în orice fel pot, să-i inspir să caute adevărul din toată inima, înainte de a accepta ideile și îndoctrinările lumii. Fiți sinceri cu voi până la capăt, pentru că atunci veți găsi adevărul și libertatea. Dacă vreți un viitor bun, căutați adevărul, nu doar ascultați ceea ce spunem noi. Căutați și veți găsi!
Interviu realizat de protos. Gherasim S. și monah Artemie C.
Art - poetry, revelation, healing and meaning
The Jackson family: Jonathan, Elisabeth, Caleb, Anastasia and Titus. A beautiful family of artists, a model of unity, of love, of assuming and living the Orthodox faith in Christ. The whole family was baptized in the Orthodox Church on the Holy Saturday of year 2012. Jonathan is a five-time Emmy Award winner and a performer with the band Enation, although for him, acting and music are means o promoting beauty. We thank him and his wife for their kindness of having offered us an interview, excerpts of which are reproduced below.
Please, describe your childhood years with your family. Many children nowadays do not know how to properly live their childhood.
Jonathan: My childhood shifted dramatically when I have started to work with adults, at about the age of eleven, which was also the time when I moved to Hollywood. So I am going to leave that aside and focus only on the first ten years, since they are the core of my childhood. I ow very beautiful memories of my childhood years. My parents taught me (and my brother and sister) about the love of God. They were well intended, making God the center of our life. I am the youngest son. As I grew up, I had a lot of rage as a child. I had a lot of anger. I was a small anarchist at 7-9 years old, because I always wanted to be able to do what everyone else around me was doing. I was younger and smaller, and I got into many fights with my brother, some of them quite physical. There was just a lot of anger and a lot of rage there. But despite all that, there was so much beauty going on too. I don't know what it's like in Romania today, but in America children don't get to spend hours and hours outside anymore on their own. It is just not very safe. But back then, we would be out for five-six hours, wandering around miles, playing in the woods, making up stories and all that. I carry many beautiful memories of those times. There was a sense of family. There was a sense of my parents, my grandparents, my great grandparents. Therefore, there was a sense of generations and a connection with the past.
I went through deep struggles until I was about 12 years old. At the age of 12 I had an encounter with Christ that really changed everything, and it happened in Hollywood. I keep a poem I wrote about it where I say that it was under the sky of Babylon where my soul fell in love with God. I don't exactly know how this happened, but it was for me a miracle of grace that in the midst of this very dark place, the Holy Spirit touched my heart and everything in my life changed. The trajectory of my life changed. The rest of my teenage years, although they were full of struggles, they were focused on getting closer to Christ.
What kind of moment was that?
Jonathan: That was a very specific moment. One night, my father had given us these tapes of sermons and one of them belonged to an evangelical minister from Australia named Dr. Desmond Ford. My brother and I would listen to these almost every night as we didn't have a church to attend to. One night I was listening to one of his sermons about the holiness of God and the pride of the human heart. On how impossible it is to impress God or please Him or live up to some standard by our own righteousness. I think it's the prophet Isaiah who says our righteousness is like a filthy rags before God. What happened was this dual revelation in which I suddenly realized how far away from God I was and how sinful I was, which I'd never truly comprehended before, in my soul. But at the same time there was this revelation of being known and loved. Therefore, both those experiences happened at the same time.
I have started to hear my own thoughts when talking to people. I have started to see how judgmental I was towards people. I have started to become aware of the unforgiveness and bitterness I had towards people. However, there was also a sense of grace. I remember I started reading the Holy Scriptures more at that time. For example, Matthew chapter five and six became so important and this was coming over me like, ‘it's impossible’. Your righteousness has to be greater than the one of the Pharisees. If you even look at a woman with lust in your heart, you have committed adultery. If you say ‘You fool’ it's like murder in the eyes of the New law. This is impossible, how can I do this? The Holy Spirit, in that moment, was whispering into my heart: „That is exactly how I want you to feel. I want you to feel the impossibility so that you can receive My grace”. That was really the process, the beginning of changing everything.
Tell me whether there were some moments in particular that shaped your youth in a formative way.
Jonathan: That's a great question, because we didn't have a church that we were actually attending. We would listen to these tapes and sermons. Then also, I stumbled upon C.S. Lewis’ theological writings, and that became absolutely central and crucial to my development in my teenage years. I started reading Mere Christianity, The Screwtape Letters and The Great Divorce all of which are incredible books. A few years later, I discovered G.K. Chesterton, which had a very similar influence on me. Then again, I started reading the Holy Scriptures a lot, just falling in love with how the New Testament is a fulfillment of the Old Testament. One of the beautiful things about this Australian minister, Desmond Ford – he was perhaps more rooted in the Fathers of the Church than many other evangelical teachers – was that he talked a lot about typology, how the Old Testament is a foreshadowing of the New Testament.
Take, for instance, the story of Abraham and Isaac: when Isaac is walking up the hill to be sacrificed, he's carrying the wood, which it's a foreshadowing of Christ carrying the cross on His shoulders towards Calvary. Moreover, Abraham represents the Father. For some unknown reason, this poetry, this beauty from the Holy Scriptures has truly revived my mind and soul. And so it helped me fall in love with the Holy Scriptures. The Old Testament, for instance, became so fascinating, mainly for how it reaches its fulfillment in the New Testament. So, this whole time I'm working in Hollywood, in films and television. I'm on the set. However, in between, when I'm in my dressing room and trailer, I'm reading these books. This is how God was keeping me intact and sane.
The connection is with the Holy Scriptures, right?
Jonathan: With the Holy Scriptures and with other books. There is yet another book which I read and was very formative for me during that time. Again, I had no knowledge about Orthodoxy. Therefore, this was more coming from an evangelical source, from more of the non-denominational world. But there was a book called The Sacred Romance, and the thesis of it was that God wishes to reach this kind of love and intimacy with our souls, that there is a romantic element involved. We would say that the divine Eros, the heavenly Jerusalem, is like a bride, whilst Christ is the bridegroom. Everything in this poetic view is a mystical framework of marriage, romance and love. That was formative to me, especially since as a teenager, I had gone through a very difficult relationship that had broken my heart. It was through that pain when I realized that God could occupy that part of my soul as well. Up to that point, I thought there are plenty wonderful things about faith and the Holy Scriptures, but when it comes to romance, that's more of a human feature. It takes place soley between a man and a woman. Through the experience of this pain, by reading The sacred romance and reading the Holy Scriptures, it felt like when Christ said: ”Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength”. I guess it actually really does mean all. That was a big moment.
Maybe Elizabeth has one moment which shaped her teenage too, her youth.
Elisabeth: Two things come to mind. At the age of eight, when you're still an innocent about everything around you and you're going to church, you're able to grasp Christ better and easier. My father, being an Italian, loved the film director, Franco Zeffirelli. Romeo and Juliet, directed in 1968, was broadcasted on TV and I watched it. I was quite young, but I watched it. I was so captivated by the beauty of the film, by Shakespeare and by the aspect of true love. The actress in there, Olivia Hussey, played Juliet so beautifully and she is also the one who played Mary, the Mother of God in Jesus of Nazareth, also directed by Franco Zeffirelli. Those films had a deep influence on my soul. When I saw her playing the Virgin Mary, on her knees surrounded by a light coming from heaven – at the moment of the Annunciation, the visual of that was powerful for me. I felt like God was saying: This is who you are as a daughter of God, on your knees listening to the Almighty. And so I fell in love with this image because now, when I look back, I realize that God wanted to offer me two things: He was trying to show me who I truly am in Christ, reveal my true identity, and that true love begins with Him and continues with your spouse. Moreover, by the grace of God, we share an amazing love story thanks to Christ's redemption. It is because of His crucifixion, death, and resurrection, that I was able to resurrect. I for one lost my way when I was 18 and my parents divorced. The whole family life falls apart, which is so common today. Then, you let the culture raise you and tell you what is good, what is not, what is right, what is wrong, and then you're in trouble.
I was inspired and wooed by God. I don't think I fully understood why was I moved by this. I now look back and say: this is what God was telling me. It changed my life also in terms of what I want. I thought I needed to be an actress. Nevertheless, that was just a journey for me to find Christ.
Tell me about your experience with the New Age spirituality and how you feel about it now.
Elisabeth: It was around the 90s, I was in Hollywood, I was on my own, and it was very difficult. And every corner, just about everywhere in Los Angeles, had psychic shops and places where you could go to have your fortune told. There was so much New Age available and yoga was on the rise. I was starving for something spiritual because many people have walked away from their faith lacking an authentic Church life. Consequently, I dove into some of these things wholeheartedly. For me, it was just a kind of survival, but at the end of the day it left me with nothing. And it had me just focus more on myself, which is the worst thing one can do. Therefore, after about six years of trying all these New Age ideas and spiritualities, I came crashing down because they were not able to fulfill my soul.
Finally, when my struggles got to the point where they were so difficult to bear, that was when I fell to my knees and finally cried out to God and I didn't any longer go to the psychic woman that I was going to, for counseling. It was like God was waking me up a bit.
You know, you later find out, as a Christian, that these are evil spirits that you're dealing with. These are demonic spirits. That is the bottom line. They are deceiving and they make you feel like ‘Oh, come, it's good, it's okay’. I mean, yoga alone means worshiping the Krishna gods. That is what yoga means. You see all these people running to yoga, Christians even; it is as if they do not understand. I do not think they are educated enough. I think there is so much naivety that even some doctors will recommend yoga. However, as a Christian, I cannot imagine practicing something that means worshiping other gods. Therefore, when I met one real Christian, that was enough to remind me about God, because I had a close relationship to Christ when I was a little girl, growing up as Roman Catholic, and to the Mother of God.
Jonathan: I'm always amazed of how personal the language in the Holy Scriptures is, starting with the prophets of the Old Testament. There is this visceral, crying out like a betrayed wounded husband. The terminology is not just reflecting a wicked generation, but adulterous too. It is everything so personal with Christ, like His tears over Jerusalem, weeping, and His parables of the last judgment, or with the wise and foolish virgins. I think that nowadays people believe society is lost. It is all about that central reality that every sin is personal and, you know, even if you are delving into these other spiritualties, is not as simple as choosing a meal that you're going to serve for dinner. There are consequences for the soul. One of the reasons why I feel that the New Age movement in particular is very deceptive is because it practices forms of spirituality. When you get down to the center, to the core of it, it feels very much like the original sin in the Eden’s Garden.
You get down to it and it is as if you become God, but not through humility, grace, repentance, and compunction, but by some kind of self-glorification. Unfortunately, that even subconsciously it appeals to many people, especially during our times, when everything is about self-gratification. So, on the surface, you can go ‘Oh, well, you're doing these spiritual exercises and you're becoming enlightened’. However, in reality, this is diametrically opposed to the path of Christ, which is truly renouncing yourself and finding freedom in great humility, finding beauty and losing your life to find it. I see a lot of musicians and artists in particular who get very caught up in a hybrid of Christianity and New Age, in their minds. It's very difficult for people to even know that it's not really Christianity that they're talking about. It's something very different because they use similar words to the ones we use in Christianity.
Tell me, what people did you meet in your life and what did you learn from them? What are the most important things you learned from them?
Jonathan: Definitely, my parents continue to be the most important. However, there were two other people that I met when I started working on General Hospital, the TV show, who played the role of my parents. Anthony Geary played my father and Genie Francis played my mother on the show, and both of them were a gift from God because they really nurtured and loved me. There was a sense of protection. As an artist, I was able to grow and learn under their mentorship. There were so many beautiful things that both of them had. They had the virtues of patience and humility, and an emotional openness to create beautiful works of art. I'm still very close to them, even to date. I love them very much. Let's go back to my love for books and authors. C.S. Lewis once said: ”we read to know we're not alone”. Even though I've never met C.S. Lewis, Chesterton, George McDonald or Dostoyevsky, I feel really close to them. I feel like that was a big part of my formation: get to sit down with them and hear what they think and hear what's going on inside their soul.
Why did you choose acting? What thought has made you continue on this field?
Jonathan: When I first started, I was too young, - ten years old. I don't think I fully understood acting back then. But there was a point in my teenage years when my brother (he's also an actor and a musician) and I, both considered quitting the industry and leaving. We had a four-hour conversation about it. What we felt at that time was that perhaps there was a reason for us to be there. So we continued. Even though acting has been central to my journey, in my soul I don't really perceiveit as quite as central. I think arts, largely speaking, is what I connect with more, whether it’s music, writing, acting, or any of those things. I think there’s a potential to reach people’s hearts and souls through parables and through stories that can connect them. But I wrestle with these things every day, because there’s a lot of interesting, difficult, strange, spiritual dynamics that come with these things. It’s a really tough question to answer to.
It's interesting that Elizabeth just mentioned the movies Jesus of Nazareth and Romeo and Juliet and how those shaped her soul and awakened her heart. For myself, I have similar experiences. A film such as Braveheart, for instance, of Mel Gibson, really changed me. I left that movie theater, maybe 15 years ago, as a different person, - in a good way. It was redirecting me towards self-sacrifice, courage, and I did not know it at the time, but that film gets very close to portraying the martyrs. Clearly, it is in the context of politics and things like this. Still, there is an emotional and spiritual impact attached to that movie. For example, when William Wallace is laid down on a crucifix at the end of the movie, the moment when he is being murdered for freedom: I did not understand what I was witnessing at the time, but it changed me for sure. The most powerful and beautiful moments can really shape our souls in a holy and powerful way. There are other films I have watched too, like The Last of the Mohicans for instance, that display some very Christ-like moments of the hero: again, of self-sacrifice. That actually shaped my soul as I look backwards, as a husband. It helped me. It gave me a vision of what it means to protect and love. I think that film, like any kind of art, really does have the potential of a catharsis. I think that works of art can bring a sense of healing. For instance, there's a beautiful book called The Ethics of Beauty by Dr. Timothy Patitsas and they did a lot of research with trauma victims. What they found was that the only thing that can help people who have gone throughtrauma is beauty. That's the only thing.
There are risky movies too. There is a risk when watching movies. What is the risk for a teenager?
Jonathan: Unfortunately, the majority of movies fall into other patterns, whether it's violence, sex, or any kind of traumatic vulgarity and grotesqueness. That's really the steady stream followed by films and TV shows that are being produced.
People may appeal to all sorts of justifications, but we know that these things have an influence on heart and soul. There is a degree of propaganda,of brainwashing and programming going on with these things, - with this constant, steady stream of influence. Sometimes we reflect on this and, as a family, we're so grateful for the church: for there are holy images when you walk into the church, and these holy icons combat the constant stream of unholy images.
It's like cleansing your mind and soul of everything.
Jonathan: It’s that gift of walking into an Orthodox church, and be surrounded by the holy icons that are so still, so perfectly still. There is a stillness and a silence in the church that does not change with the centuries. That does not change with the current technology or whatever else is going on at the moment. And that stillness and silence is telling us that Christ was as same yesterday, as He is today and forever. Therefore, no matter the chaos around us, we can cleanse ourselves by just simply be in the presence of icons and saints.
Elisabeth: I just want to add that people don't understand how traumatizing films and television have become. It's not normal to watch these kind of things, but they actually can cause trauma to our children, to our teenagers, through violence and dark images, and especially sexual immorality. It is like a loaded gun that is constantly pointed out at everybody, all the time. People get so used to it, that they don't even think it's destructive anymore.
Jonathan: Before the US came to conquer a particular geographical area, they would fly over it and drop pornography magazines everywhere because they knew psychologically that this weakens. So they would be able to come in and gain control over people more easily. There was a priest whom I spoke with, who mentioned this and there have been many studies on this too. Scientifically, the effect that this has on the brain is very similar to the endorphins and the things that it releases. It is very similar to heroin. It actually alters the connectivity of the brain, - particularly with young people, when they're still developing, being so exposed to these things. Thank God for the Church, for the holy icons, for the holy sacraments, for confession, and for all Church’s related things. The reverse is true as well. When we walk into the church and we see the saints and receive Holy Communion or confession, our minds can truly be repaired and healed.
What makes life meaningful?
Jonathan: I would say ‘Who makes life meaningful?’ One word would be Christ. From an early age, I was very fascinated by the Gospel of John. "In the beginning was the Word (the Logos)”. I was so amazed to discover over the years that Logos has so many beautiful meanings, like reason, logic, and significance. In other words, you can say "in the beginning there was meaning and the meaning was with God, and the meaning was God, and the meaning became flesh and dwelt among us”. There's a beautiful prayer, "Thou, o Christ, art the fulfillment of every good thing”. Without Christ, even good things cannot reach their fulfillment. They remain unfulfilled.
Connected to this, since we live in a society surrounded by a lot of depression and sadness, how can we deal with depression and sadness today?
Elisabeth: I've had to deal with bouts of depression myself and I've had to get to the root of it because it really started to spring up in my life during my happiest moments, when I felt that I was thriving. We were growing in the orthodox faith. We had a beautiful family. Our marriage was healthy, we had good jobs, we had everything. I was talking to a monastic from Mount Athos, and I said ”I need help. I do not know why I get waves of depression.” And he said, ”Don't worry! Christ is going to heal you, but it's different for everybody”. I didn't want to take any medication. Maybe some people need that for a brief time. However, I went to see a doctor: he asked me a series of questions, and then said, "You don't need ant antidepressants”. But what I found is that when those waves would come over me, I needed divine therapy. I needed to go to a priest and just let things out in confession. And my tears would wash whatever anxiety I was feeling. Then I turned fine again, good, happy and bright. I started to realize that every time this wave came over me, this is what I needed: going to church since the church is the hospital for the sick. Holy Communion also helped me because then I go outside and everything looks brighter, you hear the birds singing, everybody is different. I think that what everybody has absorbed on Earth is too much. It's too much knowledge of evil. People haven't had a chance to really heal. I think that we have to heal tremendously.
Jonathan: I think, in general, the core of our struggle with despair it's the absence of meaning.
You know the logotherapy of Viktor Frankl. One without meaning in life ends up in depression and in loneliness. How do we escape the feeling of loneliness? At times, we feel alone even when someone is around or we feel alone and still do not wish to meet anyone. How do we deal with this?
Jonathan: First, I would just say I have a lot of empathy and compassion for people who feel alone because it is a struggle. I think in our society and culture there is a lot of isolation, even more with the pandemic, that rather increased a lot the isolation. It sounds a bit strange to emphasize this. There are a couple of things. One is to go back to that C.S. Lewis quote:"we read to know we are not alone”. I do not really know what my life would have been, had I not been able to connect with people from the past, through reading.
Chesterton said something like "reading history is the only thing that keeps us from being a slave”, a prisoner to the spirit of age. I think many of us in our times feel lonely because we don't know who we are. We don't know where have we come from. The more history we read, the less lonely we feel. When you read about what people have gone through in Romania, under communism in particular, or in Russia, and then you see some of the struggles that we're going through in modern times, you go: ”we're not alone in this”. People have already struggled with these things. When you read about the martyrs and the first 300 years of Christianity in particular, you go: ”we're not alone in this”. We are not alone when we read and we have a very small number of people we can really open up to. We don't need a lot of friends, really.
You wrote a book, "The Mystery of Art. Becoming an Artist in the Image of God”. What do you think is the mystery and the purpose of art? Is there a mystery of art?
Jonathan: Yes, there is. The title of the book was intentionally chosen, because I spent the whole book asking myself these questions. On one hand, a mystery cannot really be articulated. I think that’s probably a good thing. I love Saint Porphyrys`s quote when he says: "Whoever wants to become a Christian must first become a poet”.
I think art is, to use Andrei Tarkovsky's phrase, a meta-language. Art is a language to speak that regular conversation won't be able to give us: whether it's music or a holy icon or literature, whatever it may be. There is an experience that we can have with art and the words I like to use, if I have to use any words around it, would be poetry, revelation, healing, and meaning. Those are the kind of the touchstones of what a real work of art can give us. It's the search for the meaning of life. However, having said all that, it remains a mystery because there are elements of it that are really beyond our ability to fully grasp.
One can say that if art does not contain any of these elements, it's not a real art – we need to distinguish between real and fake art. Together with your wife, I must say you enjoy a great celebrity. How have you managed to maintain your marital relationship, given the risk of the temptation of celebrity, how did you manage not to fall into the temptation of the popularity?
Jonathan: First, I would say that it's just by the grace of God, because there's so much about ourselves and our lives that we don't understand. Secondly, some practical aspects mattered too. After we got married, we left Los Angeles and moved to Washington for about six years. I had already been in Hollywood, in Los Angeles for ten years at that time, so getting out of Los Angeles, I think, was very healthy for us. I think, primarily, it's an internal disposition or orientation. I remember going to so many Hollywood parties and gatherings, whether premieres for films or after parties at award shows and things like these. When you are reading CS Lewis, the Holy Scriptures and other books, and then you walk into this Hollywood life, you can't help but feel the absurdity and the emptiness of fame. It is an absolute illusion. There is nothing of substance in it. Having witnessed also the misery of many very famous people helped me stay away from the temptation of celebrity. I think that helped from an early age because I got to see people like them and say: ‘oh, look, they have all this money, they have all this fame, but they're miserable’. So maybe celebrity, fame and money doesn't actually give you peace: peace of mind and peace of soul.
Elisabeth: Our story with Christ is more powerful than the temptation of being a celebrity. When I first met Jonathan, I was lost and I looked up to celebrity as it was my God. Jonathan was very famous, but he loved God more. This helped me. That's how God wood me back to Him. However, I had my own interaction with Christ later on, when my true healing began. Then our love story was so beautiful, so profound, that it was hard for me at first to leave being in front of the camera and being an actress. Acting is what I knew how to do since I was 17. But when we got married, I felt that my life was changing: at first it was difficult for me to not have the same attention, although my life was so much richer and more beautiful now, and all my other dreams have started to come true, so I didn't need anything else. It was enough that he was doing it, being an actor.
Then you add the fact that sometimes he has to do romantic scenes. I would say to God why, if our marriage is holy, why does he have to do these romantic scenes? Even this is insane. But I know that my husband is so serious about his love for God that nothing is able to come between us. It even got to the point that, when Jonathan was working on a television show and he had to do kissing scenes, I would look at the screen and say, ”that's not my husband”. It felt like we were together in spirit. He was not giving himself there. And I felt the power of God with me, like nothing can get in-between our marriage. Nothing. Anyway, I was happy when he finished the show, and he didn't have to do that anymore.
Jonathan: I was too!
I always wonder how it feels for an actor who is married or involved in a relationship, to be part of a romantic scene involving kissing or even more than kissing, and how does it feel for his/her life partner? It must be very difficult.
Jonathan: It is. It's a very strange part of the whole thing. I mean, acting is a very strange profession in general because you have to, most of the time, portray events and situations that are radically different than who you are. Even putting that aside, there are many other circumstances when it's either awkward or kind of spiritually bizarre. Dostoevsky was a real strength for me in wrestling and struggling with these questions because, here was someone who loved Christ so much, Dostoevsky, and yet he was writing about very dark things and portraying a lot of tragedy in the world. As a writer, in order to get into the psychology of an evil character that is being portrayed in the book, even if you're not acting, you still have to somehow psychologically get into the mindset of the character. There's a way to approach that, but it takes a lot of strength and a lot of prayer to not be affected by that. Art, at that point should become, perhaps from a spiritual perspective, a self-sacrifice of intercession for the life of the world, and the artist - whether it's Dostoevsky writing a novel or an actor or actress, portraying something that is tragic and heavy and intense, should become a praying man. I remember portraying once a heroin addict, a drug addict when I was younger, and I was struggling on how to play this as I did not want to do method acting (the method acting is when you become one with the role).
I realized that, instead of doing method acting, what if I prayed for the people that are struggling with drug addiction and for their families? While I'm portraying this, what if that sort of representative suffering can just become a prayer of intercession? I enter into the tragedy, instead of letting it swallow me and allowing it to destroy me. I was able to suffer and yet feel this sense of Christ's love for those who are suffering, and that really changed everything for me.
Like a big empathy, right?
Jonathan: Yes, exactly. Saint Sophrony Sakharov talks about this a lot as well. I was so blessed to learn about the prayer of the heart and the Jesus prayer in the Orthodox tradition because it just changes everything. It means that no matter what we are doing, it can all be one organic, natural motion of a prayer. That has been so healing for my soul.
The predominant wish of most young people is to assert themselves in society, to become a memorable, famous "somebody". How can young people assert themselves without abandoning Christ in their quest to remain immortalized in the memory of society?
Jonathan: I remember how Saint John Chrysostom ends one of his letters, by these words: "dearest children, stay away from idols”. It is so bluntly, so clearly expressed. What many of us don't know, what I personally didn't really understand, it is that, when it comes to celebrity, fame, and all these dynamics, the idolatry aspect comes into play. „Seek first the Kingdom of heaven and its righteousness. Everything else will be added unto you”. That's a constant reality, a constant truth to return to. At the same time, we have to acknowledge we are still on the journey. The monastics from the Holy Mountain emphasize this a lot, and it meant so much to us: the royal path. If it's too constrained, that's not the life in the Holy Spirit. There has to be something truly beautiful, organic, relational, personal, and filled with the presence of the Holy Spirit.
How do we help young people experience Christ in an authentic way? I know there are monastics and spiritual fathers who are very supportive of young people getting into the arts. We've had families contact us and say, "my daughter really wants to become an actress. My son wants to become a musician. Can you help us in any way?” It's true that there are many dangers. How do we keep that royal path where we don't compromise our faith? We don't compromise who we are, but we also don't isolate ourselves in fear that we have a sense of courage to be present in the world. It's an ongoing discussion. It depends on the child. There might be one child whose faith is stronger and maybe his spiritual father would say: "go to Los Angeles”. There might be another who's so vulnerable and weak, that he knows if he went to Los Angeles or New York, he would end up corrupted. It's like the physician who not always gives the same medicine to every person. The royal path.
What are your family principles? What keeps the love between you two and your children so solid and fruitful?
Elisabeth: The foundation of our love is blessed by Christ. When the married couple love each other, the children feel safe, happy and content. In addition, we are very close as a family because we share a lot of communication. Jonathan is really brilliant with this, with communication. Therefore, we are always talking to our children. We are always talking things through with them, even with our teenagers. My teenager, who is 18 now, if he had a date with a girl, he would show us the text message and ask ‘what do you think’? That is how much he trusts us. So, everything takes place in plain light. We have been able, by the grace of God, to guide them. I would resume to communication, love and our church life. It is a difficult time for teenagers as they have to find Christ by themselves. At times, we have to stay up late at night, talking through things that they cannot fully grasp. But there is so much love and trust going on there and a constant work. I would say love for Christ, the love among husband and wife, communication and church life are the principles. Sometimes our kids want to watch a movie and we said no. Most often they understand. There are other times though when they would get irritated with us and ask: ”Why can’t I watch this movie? It's not a big deal. Everybody's been watching it”. And we reply, ‘Look, we have been given you plenty of freedom to watch movies. This one I don't want you to watch’. And we explain why.
Or sometimes we say, ‘yes, this is a good movie, but you have to fast forward through this sexual scene, because even we don't look at it’. I wish to convey our kids that rightly understood sexuality is not harmful or that getting drunk is not healthy.
Are there other moments that connect you as a family?
Jonathan: Coming into the Orthodox Church as a family, praying together. We are not a perfect family but, by the grace of God, we aim to make our home an extension of the Church. We want our home to be, in spirit, similar to a monastery, similar to a place of healing, a place of love for God. When we get together and pray as a family, when we say our evening prayers or when we attend the Divine Liturgy together or during feast days, these are ways in which God is acting with each of us individually and, as a family, that are beyond mind’s ability to comprehend. Living the liturgical life of Church and going through the fasting seasons of the Great Lent and Nativity, it really does bond the family together. If a family observes these things solely from outside, but does not share an internal life of communication, love and patience with each other, then life in Church can become sort of a technique or a superficiality; there is a disconnection that can occur.
What values do you strive to pass on to your children?
Jonathan: One important aspect is to not complain. I do not encourage complaining. I am not a fan of boredom either. Beside this, talking respectfully and kindly one another, which is a constant battle. At the end of the day, what we are hoping by God's grace to instill to our children is an authentic, genuine love for Christ, for His Holy Church, for the Saints, and for each other, to be oriented towards eternity and not towards the vain. Everything within balance. We want them to be able to live in the world, but just not be of the world.
Nowadays, the ideology of LGBT is spreading around the world. What would you say to your children if they were drawn to give it credence and justify it? What if they were drawn to this ideology, not necessarily by being an LGBT person, but just considering it right and accepting it?
Jonathan: It is irrelevant what do I think about anything in this regard. What does Christ and the Apostles teach? What does the Church teach about these things? That is what matters.
Can you tell this to your children? Will they accept this argument?
Jonathan: Yes, they will because our entire faith is based on this. There is either a revelation that happened with the Death and Resurrection of Christ and this has authority over us or it has no authority at all. And if it has no authority, then we can make it up as we go. We can decide what we think on any given day or ride any wave of the zeitgeist, along with the spirit of the age. But if Christ is real and we believe in Him, we encourage our children to read Christian history, to look at how powerful the evidence (historically speaking) of the Risen of Christ is, to read the testimony of the martyrs and the lives of the Saints. Saint Paul says this in the Holy Scriptures: if Christ is not risen, our faith is in vain. But if He is risen, then what He preaches and the Church that He founded have the authority to shape how I see the world and how I see myself and the humanity. Another practical recommendation is the beautiful book of Elder Thaddeus called Your Thoughts Determine your life. One of the things we remind our children is that not every thought is your own. Just because we ow a thought does not mean it is necessarily ours, it does not mean we have to own it. You receive a thought and you bring it captive to the obedience of Christ. We really try to talk to them about thinking things through. I am thankful to my parents because they taught us this. Think about consequences. Think five steps in advance - is that what you want? Think things through in a deeper way.
Look at the endpoint of the journey, of that thought.
Jonathan: Indeed. By God's grace, we are trying to be very clear and firm about the teachings of Christ and of the Church. Part of His teachings and Church's teachings is to love mankind. We should be very clear about what the truth is. Love, not condemn anyone and think that it could be anyone’s struggle with anything. They could reach the gates of heaven long before me. So, Lord, be merciful towards his sins. If we throw stones and condemn people, that is against the apostolic teaching: "Let the one without sin cast the first stone”. We are trying to teach our children to never condemn people, but we certainly have to stay faithful and speak truthfully and condemn only what is not part of the teaching of Christ.
Do you find that Europe / Irish environment is more suitable for your family to live in?
Jonathan: Out in the countryside, in rural Ireland, where you are far from the cities and kind of remote - that definitely has more of a peaceful, quiet old-world feeling: being more connected with nature, with neighbors, with just the simple things in life, being less distracted; the world is becoming more connected and that is a good thing. Nevertheless, it also means that no matter where you go, there are certain struggles. For instance, with the pandemic, Ireland was very strict and that turned quite difficult for the family. However, my connection with Ireland is deep and it is connected with the history of Ireland, the Celtic Saints and the monasteries out there. No matter where we live though, surely there are certain struggles we need to deal with.
I know that your path to Orthodoxy is very long and interesting. What has attracted you to Orthodoxy?
Jonathan: First something grabbed a hold of me. It happened in Rome, Italy - that was one of the biggest moments, when we were around the Colosseum and we were walking down the same streets which Saints Peter and Paul had walked. Something happened in there. I did not know of the Orthodox Church at all. I had no concept of what it was or any traces of its existence. It took me four years of reading Christian history after that moment, to discover it. At the beginning, I thought that the Roman Catholic or Protestant churches were my only options, since Orthodoxy is quite unknown in America and in the West. However, I was hungry for authentic Christianity. `What is the real faith?` I kept asking myself in prayers, ‘where is your Church? You said, the gates of hell will not prevail against it. Where is it?’ Additionally, I was also reading the Holy Fathers of the Church.
How did you feel about Catholicism and Protestantism?
Jonathan: I felt that they are not enough. It felt that they are not the original Church. It was a very strange feeling to not have known about the existence of the Orthodox Church. It made me feel quite alone.
I thought that I am going to have to become a Roman Catholic, a thought which I could not make peace with, within my soul, or that I am just going to remain a kind of a churchless Christian, a type which in fact does not exist. But that didn’t make sense as I was reading the Holy Fathers saying: "if you don't have the Church as your mother, you don't have God as your Father”. The writings of the early Church were so clear about this hierarchy and about the mystical reality of the body of Christ and the incarnate reality of the Church. I was searching for the Truth. I thought, ‘if I believe in the historic Christ, therefore I have to believe in the historic Church too’ because He's the One Who promised it to us. But where is it? It was a miracle of grace for us to eventually discover the Orthodox Church. We did not know a single Orthodox person at that time. It was in prayer where I was struggling with this.
I felt how this thought crossed my mind, ‘look at the Great Schism, and then I will be able to show you what I love’. Orthodoxy was not a choice nor a preference. It was not like I prefer the way they do liturgy or anything else. Is the Truth present in there? If yes, then I am going to have to conform myself to it. It was difficult. Back then I did not have a relationship with the Mother of God. Now I cannot even imagine that. I can remember only intellectually a time back when the Mother of God was so present in our lives. Although within my soul I feel she has always been there. It is the same feeling I have with my children: I can remember a time when they were not with us, although within my soul I feel they have always been with us. As a former Protestant, the Liturgy was difficult. I was so anxious and I did not know how to remain still. It took faith and a sense of consciousness that the problem is with me. The problem is not with the Church, the problem is within me.
When was the very moment when you felt attracted to Orthodoxy?
Jonathan: It's hard to tell because I felt attracted to Orthodoxy before I even knew the Orthodox Church existed. "I am attracted to the historic Church, but I do not know what that is or where it is” - that thought helped me read the letters of Saints Ignatius of Antiohia and Clement of Rome and of the others Fathers of the Church. But I still had no knowledge about the Orthodox Church. I can share a specific moment. As I was crying out to God, it felt like a dark night of the soul. I was feeling quite in the despair of saying: ‘where is Your Church?’ And the answer was: ‘look into the Great Schism’. As soon as I really looked into at what happened at the Great Schism, it felt that after four years of journey, everything started to align. I did nothing but to search on my phone something about the Orthodox Church when I found a book that I could easily download called The Orthodox Church, by Father John Anthony McGuckin.
That was the first book I read on Orthodoxy. As soon as I started, I just couldn't stop reading it. Shortly after, I went on and read The Orthodox Church by Kallistos Ware and The Mountain of Silence. I first read those three books. I went to Elizabeth, my wife, and I said: ‘listen, this is going to sound really strange, but I think the Orthodox Church is the real Church’.
Then we were able to discover the beauty within the Church. There are plenty of struggles, but there is so much beauty as well. Here is the Trinitarian mysticism I was longing for, here is the life of prayer, repentance and humility that I was longing for, here are all of those things that I was longing for as a teenager when reading C.S. Lewis. It feels like all the beauty is right there under your eyes. Everything is relational. It is not just dry, intellectual, systematic theology: it's mystical. It is an encounter with the Holy Spirit. The holy light surrounds the saints, like in the case of Saint Seraphim of Sarov. When I read Saint Athanasius’ On the Incarnation, I thought: ‘I do not think I have ever really been a Christian’. I was, but it made me feel like I have never been a true Christian, if this is what it takes to be a Christian. We talk about a pearl of great price. It is similar to that treasure hidden in a field that Christ talks about. You go and sell everything to find it. That is really how the Orthodox Church is: the One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. I remember attending the Vespers of the Sunday of Orthodoxy when the priests declare "this is the faith of the Apostles, this is the faith that upholds the universe”. To utter the Creed in the Orthodox Church is a miracle. A miracle is to approach the Holy Chalice as well, knowing that this is the Chalice that not only all the other Orthodox Christians are communing with, from all around the world, but also throughout time. A lot of beauty and glory surround you. It is beyond words, really.
We live now in a multireligious world, among many religions and many ideologies. Many people claim we have the same God. What do you think is a particularity of the Orthodoxy in this world?
Jonathan: There is so much mystery in there, still there are a few things that I can mention. One of the most profound evidences or proofs of Church's existence are the Saints. If the Orthodox Church had one saint like Saint Porphyrios in the last fifty years, that would be enough. But we have so many. God has given us so many. We need them especially during these times. It is the witness of saints experiencing the uncreated light, such as Saint Seraphim of Sarov who experienced the attainment of the Holy Spirit. Now, here comes a difficulty: there is a passage in the Book of Acts talking about people who are not baptized by the Church experiencing the presence of the Holy Spirit. What happened to these people is that they immediately sought out the Church, sought out the Apostles. So, the grace is given to us even when we are outside the Church, not to be complacent and say, ‘God is with me. Why do I need to make my life more uncomfortable and continue my journey further? God is with me and I enjoy His grace’. I know the grace is given to propel us towards the fullness of the faith. One other aspect is the core witness of Saint Silouan the Athonite : love for one's enemies and Christ-like humility. In the Orthodox Church there is a particular uniqueness and beauty around these two things reflected in the lives of the Saints. Western Christianity has been greatly wounded by the rationalistic approach of God. I do think that Orthodoxy has something different to offer. The Church gives us Saints suc as Saint Seraphim of Sarov and Saint Sophrony Sakharov. It is difficult to talk about this because it involves a subtle and profound element – the mystery. It is a mystery and an encounter. Perhaps the best way to understand what Orthodoxy is, is through the encounter with these saints.
How can we as Christians live in today’s world? How can we bring a change, to make world better?
Jonathan: First is to emphasize Saint Seraphim of Sarov when saying: "Acquire the peace of the Holy Spirit and thousands around you will be saved”. There is something very profound and authentic happening there. Saint Silouan teaches us that there is one way to tell whether we have the Holy Spirit – if we love our enemies. Enemies’ love and Christ-like humility: that is what the world needs to see. The attainment of the Holy Spirit does not happen if we do not love our enemies. This is not just abstract-talking, this is about beauty and love as pre-requisites to experience the grace of the Holy Spirit. And remember Dostoyevsky's quote, "beauty shall save the world”.
How did you experience the Holy Matrimony in the Church?
Jonathan: We were married for many years prior to becoming an Orthodox. Once we have converted to Orthodoxy, at some point, a priest close to us said: ‘you can now get your marriage blessed in the Orthodox Church’. That was all it took. There was yet another moment before, when we were being baptized. I used to have a picture of my first Protestant baptism hung on my wall. The priest who was baptizing us this time, during the Orthodox baptism, leaned in and said, ‘Do you remember that picture on your wall? This is the fulfillment of that’. That is how we felt with the marriage blessed by the Church. It was not as if we were not married: we were, but this was a fulfillment.
How important is the presence of an Orthodox monastery in the midst of the Western world, Western civilization and society?
Jonathan: The presence of orthodox monasteries, particularly in the West right now, are vital. The first time we were able to visit a monastery was a very powerful experience. In America there are around 19 monasteries connected to Elder Ephrem of Arizona. I think there is a healing that takes place in a holy monastery. One thing that an elder from the Holy Mountain said, the first time I was there (he was speaking in the dining room, in front of all of the fathers and pilgrims) was that: when a married person comes to a holy monastery, he will leave the place with his marriage strengthened. What a beautiful mystery!
For people who live and work in the world to be able to enter into a monastery and feel the peace, the silence, the prayer and the stillness in there, this is a blessing. The holy monasteries are keeping the world away from complete chaos.
What are the differences between American and European spirituality and culture?
Jonathan: Let me start by just mentioning a couple brief things about the difference in culture, which might be easier to express, although they are mere generalizations. What we have found in Europe is how people still know how to balance work and recreation. Europeans have more of an artistic ethos. In America, ambition and work are extreme.
In Europe they might take holidays up to six weeks. That is unheard of in America. So, I appreciate that about Europe. People know how to just stop everything and have a cappuccino or a good conversation. There is a certain beauty in that. There is a beauty of knowing how to live well. If you look at the roots of that, they are spiritual, since a lot of the Protestant theology of John Calvin, for instance, was very much focused on work. And the criteria of being one of God's elects is how successful you are at work. Europe, being more Roman Catholic, broadly speaking, did not have as much of that influence. I have heard one monastic, a father, saying that what America needs is for the feet of holy people to walk on their earth. Again, that is why I think Elder Ephrem of Arizona is so important. It is difficult for my soul in America at times, as compared to when I am in Ireland, in Greece, in Russia or different places of Europe as there is a history behind. My soul feels this history, this sense of connection. America is so young as compared to these things.
How do you live your faith inside the family?
Elisabeth: The more I live as a Christian, the more the children are able to witness this. Also, we gather together for prayers at night and children are being raised through this. They might see me crying in Church one day, or trying to schedule a confession, or, when losing my temper and trying to have more self-control next time – they understand that mom is working out her salvation. If they witness our love and mutual respect and how we make peace after a quarrel, they witness the living of faith within the family.
How important are the prayer and the confessor for your family?
Jonathan: Oh, so important! Elizabeth was mentioning earlier that there are so many moments when the Holy confession is the place where divine therapy and healing takes place. The prayers of a spiritual father are inestimable and they are able to bring things out to light. Although I wouldn't limit this to the sacraments of confession, especially with our children. We have advised them: ‘Confession is important and there's a particular grace that happens in confession’, but it's equally important for them to talk to us and open up to us. It is not a sacramental confession, but it is yet another form of confession.
There is something holy that takes place when they carry a burden and they are able to open up to us. That burden has no power any longer. Also, we have one another and we have close friends who are also Orthodox Christians, whom we can talk to and openly admit: ‘this is what I'm struggling with, please pray for me’. It is a sum-up of all these things: the spiritual father, the confession, having close relationships with people that you can trust in order to be able to struggle together. These are all very important.
We observe that many teenagers today seem to be increasingly confused and superficial in their living. Considering your experience as a teenager and as an Orthodox Christian, but also as a father and mother, do you have a message to convey to them?
Jonathan: It is difficult to say because that is such a relational question. It depends on the teenager and whom we would be talking to, on what the message would be. One thing I could say: instill young people a stronger vision, treat them with more respect and trust that they are capable of more than we can imagine. Sometimes, in lack of a vision they turn insecure. If they are being told what they are capable of, it instills a sense of courage. What we need right now in the world is courage. I think young people need courage. It is fine to be strong. It is fine to have a perspective that says: ‘Wow, I am going to be up against some Goliaths here’. The more the youngsters live by this vision of courage, the more awakened by this will they be.
Elisabeth: I personally love teenagers so much. When I notice difficulties among teenagers, I wish to hug them and offer them my support. I would like them to open up to me. I don't want them to be afraid because I was off, because I once turned away from God. I feel I want to help in any way I can, to inspire them. I don't know what the exact message should be, except to seek the truth with all your heart before accepting new ideas and indoctrinations. Be honest with you up to the very end, because this is how you will find the truth and you will find freedom. If you want to live a good future, seek the Truth and don't just listen to whatever we might say. Just seek and you shall find.